Thanks for the extended engagement!

Yep, that was understood. Many of us freethinkers who used to participate here were former Catholics.

Mike

The Lutheran Calendar of saints is interesting. Lots of very different faiths there. I am surprised at the number of post-reformation Catholics on there. It still does not answer the question of why these people didn't become Lutheran. Is Lutheranism clear in scripture? If so, why do you not expect people to see it? If not, then how was the reformation justifiable?

It is not Protestant bashing. Just like my asking question of atheists is not atheist bashing. One should not avoid discussing areas where you feel a person has made a serious error. That needs to be a part of ecumenism. If it is not then we are sliding into a doctrinal indifference which makes no sense logically.

I do think atheists or agnostics do lump Christians together. They often treat all Christians like they are American Fundamentalists. It is understandable but unfortunate. Many forms of Christianity are incoherent on some key points. So how do you point that out without being accused of Protestant bashing?

I am not sure we understand each other. The communion of the saints can refer to the community associated with a church. I was mostly talking about the rich treasury of Catholic saints in history. That is a different sort of communion.

I do feel that more cross-denominational community makes Protestantism more difficult. When I was young I went to a Dutch Calvinist church. I went to a school that had nothing but Dutch Calvinists. My father was a pastor so most of our social contacts were Dutch Calvinists. So I never wondered why I was one. I remember meeting my first Armenian at a summer job and being shocked. A strong, reasonable Christian who did not think Arminius was obviously wrong. I tended to write off Christians were were not Dutch Calvinists. Meeting one and talking about faith with him at great length made that harder to do. So I think closer community tends to get you to ask why am I think sort of Protestant and not that sort. That is a hard question to face.

Then there was 7.30 pm Saturday "Sunday" Mass. Even a budding teenage atheist like me was confused at the idea that Sunday sports were suddenly more important than ones eternal soul. I guess it made sense in Australia. Sport is high up on the national agenda.

My father used to talk about the fast from midnight the night before taking Communion. People would have breakfast out of the back of the car when Mass was over.

I understand that one of the attractions of the Church is it stands for an eternal, unchanging morality.

Thanks for sharing. One of my buddies long long ago found the communion of saints culture in Catholicism appealing. He was locally non denominational. I say “locally” as in a local cultural Christian/Alaskan composite. In small towns, I think in particular, we have a shared ethos as neighbors first. Now I’m sure there are exceptions but generally, the degree of separation from knowing anyone is probably two or less here. Not the stereotypical Kevin Bacon six. We lost someone recently and hundreds organized and came out, in the freeze, of every denomination and none, to celebrate her life. You know what they say, funerals are always about the living. My town is my communion.

I could say more, and certainly it doesn’t work for me, but I’m glad you find a glue that you like. I’ll leave it at that.

Mike
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I am old enough to remember when the American bishops made abstinence from meat on Fridays optional. One of my co-workers, who liked to be very "out" about his Catholicism, said in dismay, "We're becoming just like the Protestants!"

My thinking was that what was good enough for Mother Teresa is good enough for me.

If I remember past comments correctly, you picked a the wrong saint here to use as an example to Mike!

It gets worse than that for Protestantism because they not only need to believe they are right and all these amazing Christians are wrong.

More Protestant bashing. Here is the Calendar of Lutheran Saints. Francis of Assisi, Theresa of Avila, Augustine, Bernard of Clairvaux, Mary the Mother of the Lord, Mary Magdalene, and many others are recognized as saints by Lutherans. (See also Luther's Marian Theology in Wikipedia.)

I just don't understand the mindset of people here who are supposed to be in dialog with atheists but who go out of their way to make swipes at Protestants. Whatever happened to ecumenism?

Note to RA: Yes, I suppose this is an attempt at "shaming" of sorts, but Protestants believe in God and Jesus just as fervently as Catholics (at least!) I in no way want Catholics to stop posting here. I wish there were many more. I wish Pope Francis would post here! But why the frequent potshots at Protestantism? Certainly the differences between Catholic and Protestant Christianity (and other forms) is a valid topic. But why do some Catholics here go out of their way to to take swipes at Protestants?

My thinking was that what was good enough for Mother Teresa is good enough for me. When you get into church history and find out how impressive these men and women were and how Catholic they were and how numerous they were that comes home. The fear that I might be making a huge mistake that will impair my spiritual progress starts to disappear. Even about specific issues like Marian devotion. Who was devoted to the Blessed Virgin Mary? St Maximilian Kolbe, St John Paul II, St Bernard of Clairvaux, etc, etc. How detrimental to holiness can it be?

It gets worse than that for Protestantism because they not only need to believe they are right and all these amazing Christians are wrong. They need to assert that these teachings are CLEARLY taught in scripture. If that is so then why did nobody arrive at their particular brand of Protestantism? In order to explain that you need to say something is wrong with all the Christians in the first 15 centuries or so. Yet if you actually look at those people that becomes untenable.

Ok cool. I guess I would just ask, what is the significance of your claim?

Because of Catholic saints, therefore:

What?

Thanks,

Mike