极速赛车168官网 Comments on: The Big Problems with Naturalism https://strangenotions.com/the-big-problems-with-naturalism/ A Digital Areopagus // Reason. Faith. Dialogue. Mon, 28 Feb 2022 10:52:00 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=6.7.1 极速赛车168官网 By: John kyles https://strangenotions.com/the-big-problems-with-naturalism/#comment-225790 Mon, 28 Feb 2022 10:52:00 +0000 https://strangenotions.com/?p=7526#comment-225790 Atheism is a religion of hatred and genocide. Evolutionism has been used to justify the torture and murder over 200,000,000 people this past century. Secularism/Naturalism is just the new PC term for Godless Communism/Atheism.

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极速赛车168官网 By: WCB https://strangenotions.com/the-big-problems-with-naturalism/#comment-194788 Mon, 05 Nov 2018 21:09:00 +0000 https://strangenotions.com/?p=7526#comment-194788 In reply to Ficino.

Many theists do that. Somehow the concept of Good becomes some mysterious quality we mere humans cannot understand. A good example is Martin Luther. His book "Bondage of the Will" tells us that reading the Bible carefully demonstrates there is no free will. But if there is no free will where does moral evil come from? God. Luther whines he wishes he had not been born a man who had to face this dilemma of God creating all moral evil. And then abandons reason and rationality. God is inscrutable, incomprehensible. The problem is that the Bible tells us that God IS just, God IS fair, God IS compassionate, God IS merciful.

I call this the sub-goodness of God argument. The supposed trustworthy revelations of the Bible make many such claims God has these sort of sub-goodnesses. The rhetorical games people have been playing ever since Paul does not work. See Romans 11:33.

It is hard to square the claim that God is simple and necessarily good and God creates all the metaphysical necessities and laws of the Universe.
Trying to undermine C. and D. by denying God is good as we think of good, runs afoul of my little sub-goodness argument. The idea of a simple God with necessary attributes including perfect goodness is not a good one. Naturalism has thus not been eliminated as a viable state of affairs.

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极速赛车168官网 By: Ficino https://strangenotions.com/the-big-problems-with-naturalism/#comment-194782 Mon, 05 Nov 2018 20:16:00 +0000 https://strangenotions.com/?p=7526#comment-194782 In reply to WCB.

I think you may overstate in your last paragraph, but some good points.

Do you think that some apologists try to rebut C and D by fallaciously exploiting non-univocal senses of terms? Or do you think they avoid equivocations or other fallacies in so doing? E.g. can they consistently affirm what the Bible teaches and deny that God is good in the sense of His having moral duties?

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极速赛车168官网 By: WCB https://strangenotions.com/the-big-problems-with-naturalism/#comment-194778 Mon, 05 Nov 2018 19:25:00 +0000 https://strangenotions.com/?p=7526#comment-194778 Starting with Plotinus, we had the concept of the One. God that is self contained. This lead to the claims God is simple. That God's substance and his essences are one. That dodged the issue of where these essences came from and how they came to be God. Which existence would have to be explained. Possibly leading to an infinite chain of metaphysical explanations. Therefore all is God except that which God creates. God's attributes are there fore necessary, his omnipotence, omniscience, omnibenevolence et al.

Descartes in his letters to Mesenne takes this concept to it's logical conclusion. God creates the material world, and thus creates not just nature and it's secondary cause, (as stated by William of Okham) but the metaphysics and logic, the laws and rules of the Universe. God could have made 2 + 2 = 5 had God so desired.

But if God's goodness is a necessary attribute of a simple God without parts, where does moral evil come from? A good God could have create mankind with a good moral nature, such as God enjoys, a free will as God enjoys and man would never do moral evil. Any possible objection that could be made by theologians as to why this cannot be so is not viable, because God makes the rules and can have any state of affairs God wishes. A good God would want perfect moral goodness.

Thus this simple, perfect being God concept goes down in flames. Either God:
A. Does not exist. Naturalism rules
B. Does not make the rules and laws of the Universe. Naturalism sneaks in through the back door
C. God Is not good which makes Christianity et al false and the Bible not true, trustworthy revelation.
D. God does not care about us, again, not consistent with revelations from God.

The idea that naturalism is impossible is not true. The best the anti-naturalist can do is abandon the idea that the Bible etc are true revelations and abandon C. and D.

The idea that God is the underlying cause of all, is simple, and has necessary essences in the end collapses and cannot be true. We see no supernatural realm, but see a material one all around us.

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极速赛车168官网 By: SpokenMind https://strangenotions.com/the-big-problems-with-naturalism/#comment-194156 Mon, 15 Oct 2018 21:48:00 +0000 https://strangenotions.com/?p=7526#comment-194156 In my opinion, near death experiences give pause to the position that everything is naturally explainable. For those who've had one, it seems like there is a dimension beyond our physical reality.

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极速赛车168官网 By: David Nickol https://strangenotions.com/the-big-problems-with-naturalism/#comment-194115 Fri, 12 Oct 2018 04:56:00 +0000 https://strangenotions.com/?p=7526#comment-194115 With no new comments in two days, it's beginning to look like solipsism may be true.

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极速赛车168官网 By: Dennis Bonnette https://strangenotions.com/the-big-problems-with-naturalism/#comment-194113 Tue, 09 Oct 2018 21:22:00 +0000 https://strangenotions.com/?p=7526#comment-194113 In reply to Brian Green Adams.

That is funny. I could swear that this type of argument from you falls exactly into the kind of "logic" I am refuting:

>"And so, we "indirectly" observe that our senses work only when our biological sensory organs and nervous system exist and are functioning normally. And this leads to the logical conclusion that what seeing is, for example, is light hitting the eyes and affecting the brain. We further know that the lens of the eye flips the light rays on the retina. But we don't see things upside down, therefore, and with other similar observations, we conclude that what we experience is an image the brain is compiling." BGA

None of your statement here makes any definitive sense unless you are assuming precisely the sorts of things I was critiquing in my article and in your own statements, like this one.

What in heavens name do you mean by "indirect" observation with respect to observation of the physical mechanisms of the body and the world? If you mean we are merely going from internal images to external things, then you are engaged in the very self-contradictory reasoning I described many times above.

Are you now starting with internal images and using them to "indirectly" argue to the external world. But then, you use the physical nature of the external world to show that what we know is not the external world, but only internal images! Are you coming or going?

This may not be circular reasoning, but it surely is amazingly confused thinking!

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极速赛车168官网 By: Brian Green Adams https://strangenotions.com/the-big-problems-with-naturalism/#comment-194112 Tue, 09 Oct 2018 18:17:00 +0000 https://strangenotions.com/?p=7526#comment-194112 In reply to Dennis Bonnette.

>We assume that we have direct scientific knowledge of the external world.

I don't. I assume that the experience I have of experiencing is generally accurate, it's not scientific and I assume nothing about directness or indirectness.

>Yet, such direct scientific knowledge (assuming materialism/physicalism)

Materialism/physicalism is not assumed either.

>necessarily implies that we cannot have direct scientific knowledge of the external world, but rather that what we actually know is only internal neural patterns or images.

But since I haven't assumed direct or scientific knowledge I don't see any contradiction.

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极速赛车168官网 By: Dennis Bonnette https://strangenotions.com/the-big-problems-with-naturalism/#comment-194108 Tue, 09 Oct 2018 02:16:00 +0000 https://strangenotions.com/?p=7526#comment-194108 In reply to Brian Green Adams.

Although I have a doctoral minor in symbolic logic, I must confess that I have had a lifelong dislike for formal logic itself.

Strictly speaking, the problem I have been describing is not circular reasoning, except in the looser sense that the conclusion "circles back" to the initial premise by actually contradicting it! It does NOT assume what you are trying to prove, since the only thing it proves is something that contradicts the initial assumption. Namely, it proves that what we actually know (internal images) is not what we began by scientifically assuming (direct knowledge of physical phenomena).

Here would be the form of the argument as I see it:

We assume that we have direct scientific knowledge of the external world.

Yet, such direct scientific knowledge (assuming materialism/physicalism) necessarily implies that we cannot have direct scientific knowledge of the external world, but rather that what we actually know is only internal neural patterns or images.

Therefore, our conclusion contradicts the initial premise.

It is something like the illicit self-referential statement: This statement is false. If it is true, it is false. But, if it is false, it is true.

If what we assume about our direct scientific knowledge of the external world is true, then having direct scientific knowledge of the external world turns out to be impossible.

That, strictly speaking, may not be circular reasoning, but it is just as deadly.

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极速赛车168官网 By: Brian Green Adams https://strangenotions.com/the-big-problems-with-naturalism/#comment-194107 Tue, 09 Oct 2018 00:24:00 +0000 https://strangenotions.com/?p=7526#comment-194107 In reply to Dennis Bonnette.

>Now do you see how hopelessly circular all this reasoning truly is?

No, I'm sorry. I think the way to show argument is question-begging is to lay it out as a syllogism and note which premise is the same as the conclusion, isn't it?

Perhaps you could do this?

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