http://www.peermolvi.com/islamic-dua-for-success-in-business/

The Catholic Church does not call persons with SSA intrinsically disordered. It calls homosexual acts intrinsically disordered.

Dishonor to parents, murder, adultery, lying, stealing--these are intrinsically disordered too.

I think if you think about the meaning of the words "intrinsic" and "ordered" you will agree that you think some human acts are intrinsically disordered.

Well I'm glad you feel that way. The only problem I see is that telling someone they are intrinsically disordered is kind of antithetical to everything else you just described (especially in the case of a child). Why do you place so much value on tradition? Have you explored the history of the people who passed these traditions on? They were violent and power hungry. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albigensian_Crusade

To treat anyone's claim to divine knowledge or revelation as anything but dubious is surely folly.

You wrote:

> And you don't have to approve of anyone. Just speak about people respectfully and respect their rights to equality and to not have the same beliefs as you.

I can reconcile the following statements but I don't think you think they can be:

> Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, tradition has always declared that “homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered.”

> [Persons with same sex attraction] must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided.

Well that's certainly part of it. Stupid is not the word I would use. Many very intelligent people were and are Christians, it is clearly a reasonable thing to believe in for some people and under certain circumstances. I just don't think it's correct. What is Christian, and unChristian? I imagine there are as many answers as there are Christians, and no way to discern who is right. I am just trying to suggest that you don't have to alienate people for their differences to consider yourself a good Christian.

Anyways I am curious. Do you think this is all nonsense? Do you not care? Or do you just think it doesn't matter?

Underneath all this verbiage what are your actual claims?

1. Christianity is stupid but Christians who don't approve of homosexual sex and SSM are unChristian.

2. People who don't approve of homosexual acts cause massive psychological problems for people who have SS attraction, including suicide.

Is that about it?

Why's it "odd" for 2 brothers who love each other to marry each other? I can't see why that might be except for latent prejudice/stereotyping that 2 ppl who love each other "just can't" be related.

On your view of marriage i can't see a logical reason for denying marriage to relatives and good friends and more than 2 ppl - now bf you get me wrong i DON'T think that extending marriage to 2 old spinsters is weird at all/immoral IF your defn prevails ie marriage is public recognition of an emotional bond.

Don't forget either than by far most gay groups DID NOT want marriage in the 70s and 80s and early 90s - they thought that it was an archaic evil institution that put arbitrary limits on sexual freedom and imposed a capitalistic morality on what should be a free and loving arrangement.

Anyway we disagree that's a good thing and we can discuss our differences w/o name calling which is rare these days - we should be proud of that.

Take care.

This might be a worthy point except that the number of brothers looking to get married was pretty well an unwavering zero last time I checked, and it still does not justify denying equal rights to people who are different. Besides, if two elderly brothers want to get married for some strange reason, if it benefits them I don't see how that hurts me or society. It's just a little odd. If you want to have an honest discussion than you can go back and actually address the good points I made (and questions asked) which you promptly ignored and moved forward from. Otherwise I will refrain from wasting my time further. Lets be respectful and not ignore that which is not easy to respond to yes? Otherwise how can we ever get anywhere?

I find it curious that you don't stop to ask questions when someone suggests that your actions seriously harm people but you will take time to express your offense at profane language. Is this indicative of the difference between secular and religious morality? When you tell me that what I see as positive is actually bad for society and/or people I ask for evidence, and I will seriously consider it, because I want to help move society towards a place of greater all around health, happiness, and equality (and because I am as fallible as any man). Although aside from giving me long winded links to peruse you have offered little in this regard. When I suggest the same to you it is invariably dismissed or ignored. It is not requested of me to explain or produce evidence for this assertion, which leads me to think you don't want to consider that you could be mistaken, and that you don't want to help move society towards a place of greater all around health, happiness, and equality. My profanity was not simply representative of my low class upbringing, it served a literary purpose. To metaphorically shake you by your shoulders and say "look! This is something important that I would really like you to consider! And it may even be that your belief system would necessitate that you care enough to consider what I am saying honestly." That being said I will consider the arguments put forth in this article, despite the very valid point of David Nickol below, that it is clearly biased propaganda. First off, this one blew me away...
"The danger with this mentality is that it fosters an anti-natalist mindset that fuels population decline, which in turn puts tremendous social, political, and economic strains on the larger society."

Do we live on the same planet? We are about to witness an insane population boom like never before. We are likely going to have trouble feeding everyone without destroying the environment, add the uncertainty of our wildly changing and destabilizing climate and you have a situation where it is ridiculous to argue that we are not going to have enough people. We are going to struggle to feed the people we have. Even if these points are legitiimate they could easily be rectified/compensated for by allowing educated young foreigners to immigrate. Unless you have a problem with immigrants.

10. Women and marriage domesticate men.
This is hardly justification for denying people who are different equality under the law. This fact is irrelevant to someone who has no interest in or would take no true pleasure or satisfaction from a heterosexual relationship. How well did being domesticated work for the married gay man in your anecdotal article?

And #6
"One of the biggest threats that same-sex "marriage" poses to marriage is that it would probably undercut the norm of sexual fidelity in marriage." The justification of this is another study which showed a greater disinclination towards fidelity among gay men then among straight or lesbian couples.

Lets pause for a second and come back to this. Maybe just consider the children in your own life, your own or your families' or children of friends you care about. What influence are you going to have on the path that their life takes? Specifically if one of them turns out to be gay or have some sort of non-conventional sexual orientation. According to one survey conducted with a few hundred young adults... "Higher rates of family rejection were significantly associated with poorer health outcomes. On the basis of odds ratios, lesbian, gay, and bisexual young adults who reported higher levels of family rejection during adolescence were 8.4 times more likely to report having attempted suicide, 5.9 times more likely to report high levels of depression, 3.4 times more likely to use illegal drugs, and 3.4 times more likely to report having engaged in unprotected sexual intercourse compared with peers from families that reported no or low levels of family rejection."

(http://m.pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/123/1/346.short)

(and according to another study...) As far as the greater social environment those kids or young adults will experience...

"Lesbian, gay, and bisexual youth were significantly more likely to attempt suicide in the previous 12 months, compared with heterosexuals (21.5% vs 4.2%). Among lesbian, gay, and bisexual youth, the risk of attempting suicide was 20% greater in unsupportive environments compared to supportive environments. A more supportive social environment was significantly associated with fewer suicide attempts, controlling for sociodemographic variables and multiple risk factors for suicide attempts..."

Another similar study, in addition to confirming the above found that...

"A positive school climate and a lack of homophobic victimization moderated the differences among sexual orientation status and outcomes. Results indicate that schools have the ability to lessen negative outcomes for LGB and sexually questioning students through creating
positive climates and reducing homophobic teasing."

And we have this to consider...
"A new study finds that lesbians, gay men and bisexuals (LGB) who sought mental health treatment from health care providers were no less likely to attempt suicide than LGB people who did not seek any treatment at
all, but seeking help from religious or spiritual sources was associated with higher odds of a suicide attempt."

Read more: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/wwjtd/2014/08/study-lgbt-people-who-go-to-religious-counseling-more-likely-to-commit-suicide/#ixzz3Q5AfnXK4

So perhaps we should consider that if there is evidence of greater infidelity or dysfunction as you might see it (and your propaganda claims) that your very treatment of homosexuals and all things related is at least partly to blame for this. Also that your own children or the children you care about could be driven farther from what I think you would perceive as living in line with what God intends (and what I would just consider living a healthy happy life in harmony with the people and world around you) as a result of the environment you foster and support. The man in the anecdote you shared earlier had clearly been trying to live the life that he thought God and society wanted him to lead, but his own dissatisfaction and unhappiness inevitably lead him to abandon this pursuit. In rejecting the repressive elements of the faith which he was not able to live with, he also abandoned the wisdom and the good elements. Being in a time or state of turmoil and great change, a person does not have time or cognition sufficient to rationalize their actions and develop an entire new morality to replace the old one. The result is the situation described which was undoubtedly not positive for the children involved. I have had terrifying conversations with people who assert that without God there is no reason not to rape or kill or do whatever you want, so long as the end result is to your own benefit. So what, I have to wonder, would become of the morality of these men if they came to believe God a fiction? They would surely provide great examples of the immoral depravity of a Godless man. This is a stark contrast from children who grow up with a morality which is not predicated on God or religion, who generally learn and experience and see that (regardless of whether or not something exists which could be considered God) it is a positive experience to empathize and to care about and have reciprocal social bonds with others. I think I already spoke of the positive feedback mechanism involved in this. As long as we continue to treat homosexuality as some sort of illness or disorder, as long as we keep pushing people into pretending they are someone they are not to make some unknowable deity happy we will continue to see broken families and lost homosexuals trying to find themselves and probably making mistakes along the way, hurting themselves and others. Just like every human.

Going back to your "social science arguments against same-sex marriage" and the infidelity and unhealthiness of gay relationships, perhaps we should consider evaluating our own effect on the problem and how we can influence people positively. This could prove far more productive than simply identifying problems people may have and using them as justification for discrimination. Wouldn't it be funny if the true path to healthier families and bringing people closer to God was simply following Jesus' example and treating people with kindness and acceptance even when you don't necessarily agree with their actions? I believe these studies I shared illustrate the truth of this idea pretty well. I don't expect you to change your mind completely, but at least consider the influence you might be having on the self esteem and self confidence of young people you care about, and where that may lead them in their lives. I'll leave you with one last story to consider.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2014/12/30/transgender-teen-killed-in-traffic-after-writing-suicide-letter-describing-her-christian-parents-opposition/