Her stories have a dark undertone that gives them a creepy feel that is i think unusual and makes the reader feel uneasy; but i agree she's prob just a good short story writer.

You are wrong, I'm from the south, sympathetic to southern agrarianism, a Christian, but I dislike (understatement) O'Conner. She woefully overrated, IMO.

sorry, but how is your comment helpful? who's talking about doubting everything? what exactly is living in an intellectual mud puddle from your perspective?

You make a very good point, Ignatius, but I wish you'd learn "led" as the past tense of "lead" to make your points more immediately understandable.

Are you claiming that the Black Death is logically incompatible with an all-good, all-powerful God? In other words, that it is impossible that God could have any good reasons for allowing the plague?

I was actually just claiming that your belief that God allows suffering for us to grow in virtue and to grow closer to him is certainly false in many cases. I used the Black Plague to show why I am unconvinced by your reasoning that suffering brings about closeness to God and virtue. However, I do think that the problem of evil is a sound deductive argument, unless one wants to redefine what good is.

Suppose we have world A in which there exists an evil X, which God allows because a greater good Y comes from X. Because God is all-knowing he knows how to create a world B with good Y but without evil X. Because God is all-powerful he can create world B. Because God is all-good, he would create world B. Instead, we live in a world with evil, therefore God is not all-knowing, all-powerful, and all-good. This argument shows that God is logically inconsistent with the world we observe. God cannot have reasons for allowing evil, because he can create a world absent the evil, but with the goods that came from the evil.

Or are you merely claiming that you personally don't seem to be able to detect any good reasons why God would allow it?

That is a weaker claim than the one that I am making. I do not detect any reasons for God's allowance of evil. Furthermore, when reasons are offered by theists, I find the reasons insufficient.

If the former, then you've dissolved the so-called logical "problem of evil."

I think you would have to first identify the error I make in my reasoning before saying that the argument is dissolved. Besides, there are more sophisticated atheists than myself who have more sophisticated arguments.

If the latter, you must admit that God could have good reasons for allowing particular evils, but that you're in a limited position to detect such reasons (given our position within time and space.)

First you would have to show me the logical error in my reasoning. However, it would seem that the entire human race is in a limited position to detect the reasons God has for allowing a world overpopulated with evil.

This along with the general poor design of the universe is certainly evidence for the nonexistence of the Tri-Omni God. Once we also claim that this God cares about us (is a personal God) these problems become even larger and we can add other problems such as the inefficacy of prayer, God's wonton nature, and the difficulty we have in communicating with God.

In either case, I see no strong argument against the existence of God

I think most theists would disagree with you. I think most theists would admit that the problem of evil is a strong argument, but that the arguments for God are stronger, so they believe. That has been my experience and certainly what I believed when I was a theist.

Happy New Year!!!!

"The Black Death would be a good example...Why did God destroy Medieval society by allowing a quarter of the population to die of a horrible disease?...That doesn't seem very Omniscient."

Are you claiming that the Black Death is logically incompatible with an all-good, all-powerful God? In other words, that it is impossible that God could have any good reasons for allowing the plague?

Or are you merely claiming that you personally don't seem to be able to detect any good reasons why God would allow it?

If the former, then you've dissolved the so-called logical "problem of evil."

If the latter, you must admit that God could have good reasons for allowing particular evils, but that you're in a limited position to detect such reasons (given our position within time and space.)

In either case, I see no strong argument against the existence of God.

You can observe the results of an immaterial being if you choose to look. If you wish to have evidence for it, it's there. It is not the evidence of science, however, and never will be.

And as point of logic, there is no particular reason that no deity is particularly "logical" either. We live comfortably on a speck of dust on a planet just the right amount of space from the Sun. In contrast, the universe, as whole we think is 2 degrees Kelvin, made up of Helium and Hydrogen.

That there's a planet that supports life is improbable. Our existence is near impossible. If you wish to see life and human society as endless set of improbable coincidences, no one stops you. (Nor does God and I think there's a reason for that.)

However, ironically, the study of quantum mechanics, the sciences, and even the Big Bang Theory suggests "Creator". If matter and energy cannot be created nor destroyed, where does the matter/energy come from in the first place? The question is not a question of science, but of faith. In the end, theists have an answer and atheists do not.

At some point, you do know. Doubting *everything* is a luxury - living in an intellectual mud puddle gets old after a while.

Steven Hawing is searching for the meaning of everything. The modern Philosophy departments are in fact found in quantum mechanics. They just aren't particularly honest with themselves.

Interesting convo. I thought I would throw in a meat-head comment. A pretty amusing discussion of the Trinity and how St. Patrick tried to explain it to the Irish can be found on YouTube under "Lutheran Satire- Donnal and Connal and St. Patrick" ( you will find it if you put all that in the search bar). It is about two minutes long and is pretty funny. Please take a look for a good laugh.