极速赛车168官网 Comments on: Turning the Problem of Evil On Its Head https://strangenotions.com/turning-problem-evil/ A Digital Areopagus // Reason. Faith. Dialogue. Mon, 25 Nov 2019 19:30:00 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=6.7.1 极速赛车168官网 By: jrship https://strangenotions.com/turning-problem-evil/#comment-205360 Mon, 25 Nov 2019 19:30:00 +0000 http://strangenotions.com/?p=3122#comment-205360 It's true that individual relativism and cultural relativism are subjectivist views, but then again so is God relativism. Divine commands are either grounded in objective moral reasons or they are just as subjective as the brocoli preference. But if they're grounded in objective moral reasons, then those reasons exist for all subjects. For example, surely God would command "don't slap innocent little babies for no reason." If we asked God why, God might respond "it's just my preference; some like slapping babies, I just happen not to" or God might respond "because babies are innocent and being slapped is painful." If you think the latter answer is how God would respond then you think pain is intrinsically deplorable, rather than being deplorable because God capriciously deplores it. But if pain is intrinsically deplorable then that fact is independent of God's existence. In other words, unless your moral theory is God relativism, which is just another version of subjectivism, you need to posit God independent moral reasons, such as the intrinsic deplorability of pain, but if you do that then the proponent of the problem of evil can point to these reasons as a grounds for their judgment that evil exists.

What I'm saying is reread Plato's Euthyphro. Divine Command Theory isn't an alternative to relativism; it's a version of relativism.

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极速赛车168官网 By: Michael Hartley https://strangenotions.com/turning-problem-evil/#comment-193278 Thu, 06 Sep 2018 00:57:00 +0000 http://strangenotions.com/?p=3122#comment-193278 Epicurus' argument is an argument by contradiction, and when you claim the argument is a problem for atheists, you've misunderstood how propositional logic and arguments by contradiction work.

The argument goes:

* If there's an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent God, then objective evil would not exist.

This is a problem only for belief systems which claim:

* There is an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent God, and also, objective evil exists.

It is emphatically NOT a problem for belief systems which claim any of:

* There is an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent God, and actually, NO objective evil exists.
* There is NO omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent God, and objective evil exists.
* There is NO omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent God, and actually, NO objective evil exists.

All brands of atheism are in the last two categories here, and are not contradicted by Epicurus' argument.

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极速赛车168官网 By: Terry Hudson https://strangenotions.com/turning-problem-evil/#comment-187276 Sun, 04 Mar 2018 17:16:00 +0000 http://strangenotions.com/?p=3122#comment-187276 The Problem of Evil in one Infographic: https://booksontrial.com/problem-of-evil-infographic/

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极速赛车168官网 By: baba orielly https://strangenotions.com/turning-problem-evil/#comment-180144 Mon, 11 Sep 2017 20:37:00 +0000 http://strangenotions.com/?p=3122#comment-180144 The problem with this entire post is that it assumes things about atheists and about morals that it shouldn't.... I am an atheist because I've yet to see ANY hard/substantial evidence of any god existing... ever... and I find it funny how that for the most part.... what "god" you believe in.. mostly depends on where geographically you were born and raised... middle East=muslim... India=Hinduism... America's=Christianity and so on.... now don't get all butthurt snowflakes... this is just a generalized statement to make a point... and that point is ... ALL those religions insist on their "god" being the one true god.. when in fact none of them are correct... how could they be... furthermore objective morality does NOT actually exist... most of us are born with an innate sense of right and wrong and then we are taught what someone else's idea of right and wrong is.. then we compare the two.. see what works and what doesn't and vwalla... the average sense of morality... NONE of wich needs to come from any holy book... it is in fact THOSE HOLY BOOKS that drive people to do totally immoral things in the name of their specific god... for christ's sake god himself committed mass genocide according to the story of Noah's Ark... did all those innocent babies and elderly all over the world REALLY need to drown because some folks like to get freaky in a way that made god blush... so god just killed EVERYBODY!!?? so no wonder why people commit murder in the name of some god... if god can do it why can't we.. right? WRONG... if god truly exists he IS a monster... but he doesn't does he? When we die we simply return back to the state we were in before we were born... we go back to being nothing... sorry folks.. the Christian god does not exist... there is nothing to even argue about... he simply just doesn't exist..

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极速赛车168官网 By: Michael https://strangenotions.com/turning-problem-evil/#comment-180101 Mon, 11 Sep 2017 07:13:00 +0000 http://strangenotions.com/?p=3122#comment-180101 The problem of evil is something that can be simply a reductio ad absurdam. It need only say that, given theism and what most theists agree to be evil, then there is a contradiction (no, I don't think the free will defense works). This article does not even come close to addressing the many secular forms of moral realism. It also seems to assume that ethical subjectivism means "anything goes" and you can't criticize any other person's behavior. That doesn't seem true-to take one example, we could still invoke the Golden Rule or something similar on the Nazis, noting how they wouldn't like being treated this way, and can't object if someone else does it to them. Anyway, at bottom this is a problem only for theism. If you do not posit an all-good, all-powerful God (as atheism obviously doesn't) there is no problem.

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极速赛车168官网 By: Kerk Lastnameless https://strangenotions.com/turning-problem-evil/#comment-179989 Sat, 09 Sep 2017 03:38:00 +0000 http://strangenotions.com/?p=3122#comment-179989 "Objective morality, including objective evil, cannot exist without God" -- oh no, that's where you lost me. Atheists will have a field day disemboweling that proposition of yours. For one thing, nothing precludes an atheist from believing in the objective morality a la Platonism. Secondly, and more importantly, even the nihilists will tell you that if God doesn't exist, then the world is exactly as you'd expect it to be -- full of suffering and no purpose to any of it. But if God does exist, then you would naturally expect him to take care to make a world with as little suffering as possible.

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极速赛车168官网 By: dougshaver https://strangenotions.com/turning-problem-evil/#comment-177683 Mon, 03 Jul 2017 11:51:00 +0000 http://strangenotions.com/?p=3122#comment-177683 In reply to RebelwithaCause.

Give us another option then.

Here are a few alternatives to objective morality:
1. Evil is whatever you happen to like or dislike.
2. Evil is disobeying religious authority.
3. Evil is violation of civil law.
4. Evil is causing or tolerating gratuitous suffering.
5. Evil is social injustice.

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极速赛车168官网 By: RebelwithaCause https://strangenotions.com/turning-problem-evil/#comment-177682 Sun, 02 Jul 2017 18:58:00 +0000 http://strangenotions.com/?p=3122#comment-177682 In reply to dougshaver.

"That’s called a false dichotomy. The alternative to objective morality is not solely the proposition that evil is “nothing more than what you happen to like or dislike.”
Give us another option then.

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极速赛车168官网 By: dougshaver https://strangenotions.com/turning-problem-evil/#comment-177475 Mon, 19 Jun 2017 08:15:00 +0000 http://strangenotions.com/?p=3122#comment-177475

we still acknowledge that God cannot do the logically impossible.

This atheist has never had a problem with that qualification on God’s omnipotence. Atheists who do have a problem with it are just being silly, in my opinion. (And there are an awful lot of silly atheists out there.)

Free will entails the possibility of doing what is contrary to God's will (this is what we know as evil).

That looks a lot like the divine command theory of ethics. This brings up the Euthyphro dilemma, and I understand that Christians think they have solved it with some help from Aristotle. That solution raises another question, though. Do we know that something is evil because we know that God has forbidden it, or do we know that God has forbidden it because we know that it is evil?

abundant free will is consistent with the presence of evil

OK. But would it be inconsistent with the absence of evil? Must evil actually exist in order for us to be free?

you may not see why free will is better than God forcing us to perform on command

I will stipulate for the sake of discussion: If God exists, I do not and would not wish to be his robot.

Obviously, an omnipotent and omnibenevolent God might well do or permit things that I happen to dislike.

Whether a benevolent God would do that might depend on why you dislike those things. There are plenty of things we don’t like for the simple reason that they really are bad for us.

The existence of broccoli and the New York Yankees doesn't discredit God

No, but the existence of pizza with anchovies does :-)

unless I'm such a narcissist as to think that a loving God would create the universe as best suits my own whims.

I can understand a loving God attaching scant importance to my personal food preferences.

Objective evil exists: This is what is obviously meant by the problem of evil.It may be obvious to moral realists. It is not so obvious to us who think Aristotle made some mistakes in his metaphysical theorizing.

Objective morality, including objective evil, cannot exist without God.

Of course not, if you’re an orthodox theist, because if you’re an orthodox theist, nothing could have existed without God.

More specifically, the problem is that is that there's no way to get from statements about how the world is to how the world ought to be without imposing a value system.

Sure. It’s called making judgments. But we human beings do have values, and we have them necessarily, and so we cannot avoid making judgments. Whether we want to or not, we will make them. And what’s more, we will live with the consequences of those judgments, whether we want to or not.

atheistic naturalism denies any such universally-binding moral laws (since they require Divine Authorship).

Yes, we do reject your assumption that nothing can be evil unless God has declared it to be evil.

Why, from a strictly biological standpoint, should the man listen to his genetic hard-wiring when it tells him rape is wrong, and not when it gives him an urge to rape?

Because our genes don’t exert that kind of control over our behavior. Anyone who actually understands evolutionary theory would know that.

The atheist responding argues that both of Craig's premises are false:

Firstly, objective morals could well exist without God. They could be hardwired into our genes as an evolutionary survival mechanism.

The naturalistic claim that we are hardwired with a moral instinct is not a claim that we are hardwired with an aversion to rape in particular. Some of us reject the notion that morality is all and only about learning a set of rules and then complying with them.

You can see this with virtually any sin: man both desires sin, and knows it's wrong.

You’re assuming your conclusion. Sin is a theological concept. Ethics—the study of right and wrong—is a philosophical concept.

Why not act like simply another member of the animal kingdom, a world full of rape and theft and killing.

Because animals are not all alike. Individual creatures within each species differ from all other individuals, and every species differs from all other species, and we humans are no exception. We do not, and we cannot, behave exactly like every other animal behaves.

If the hard-wiring is nothing more than the result of random chance over millions of years, it's not at all clear to me why it would be morally evil to disregard it.

This reveals a gross misunderstanding (or plain ignorance) of evolutionary theory. No characteristic, of any organism, that is produced by natural selection is simply “the result of random chance.”

And indeed, atheists constantly go against their genetic hard-wiring. For example, I'd venture that most atheists use birth control and don't seem to find this immoral, even though it's transparently contrary to both our genetic hard-wiring, and evolutionary survival mechanisms. They're literally stopping evolution from working

That is right. We are claiming that our moral instincts are a product of natural selection. That is different from claiming that natural selection can itself tell us the difference between right and wrong.

a more direct violation of evolutionary hard-wiring is almost unthinkable (except, perhaps, celibacy).

You might want to do some more thinking after studying up on worker bees.

Some of these urges are worth acting upon, some aren't. But to know which to obey and which to ignore is a moral question, not a biological one.

Right. It requires the use of other cognitive faculties that were also produced by natural selection.

The atheist reply continues:

However, objective moral values de facto do not exist.

If this is true, we cannot criticize the Nazis for killing millions of Jews, any more than we can criticize the Yankees for beating the Tigers.

That looks like a non sequitur to me. The distinction between facts and values does not imply any kind of equivalence of all values or value judgments. Our moral preferences are in no ethically relevant way similar to our entertainment preferences.

We don't happen to care for Nazi genocide, but their cultural practices are just different from our American values.

Differences come in many kinds. Some are morally relevant and some are not.

As I said above, if by “evil” you mean nothing more than what you happen to like or dislike, the term is meaningless. So when atheists raise the problem of evil, they're already conceding the existence of objective evil, and thus, of objective morality.

That’s called a false dichotomy. The alternative to objective morality is not solely the proposition that evil is “nothing more than what you happen to like or dislike.”

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极速赛车168官网 By: BCE https://strangenotions.com/turning-problem-evil/#comment-177308 Tue, 06 Jun 2017 17:46:00 +0000 http://strangenotions.com/?p=3122#comment-177308 Atheists might not be using Boole logic properly.
If a dog is a mammal and all mammals are animals then a dog is an animal.
If animals are distinct from plants then dogs are not plants.
So the axiom depends on modal..if.. and once the set is made and {x} defined
it can't just be arbitrarily changed.
So once you define ...×=God(all good, knowing, powerful) and mankind can be evil
you can reasonably say...then man is not God and if man is not God then a man is not necessarily all good....
You can't conclude God is something other then as defined once {x} is known
just as 2+3=5 therefore 5-3=2...the number 2 must remain 2 in the set

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