极速赛车168官网 Comments on: 10 Keys on Faith and Science for Christians and Atheists https://strangenotions.com/a-10-point-primer-on-faith-and-science-for-christians-and-atheists/ A Digital Areopagus // Reason. Faith. Dialogue. Tue, 22 Aug 2017 08:55:00 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=6.7.1 极速赛车168官网 By: Jim (hillclimber) https://strangenotions.com/a-10-point-primer-on-faith-and-science-for-christians-and-atheists/#comment-179387 Tue, 22 Aug 2017 08:55:00 +0000 http://strangenotions.com/?p=6565#comment-179387 Are you saying that those verses amount to endorsements of "blind faith" simply because they invoke faith in something that cannot be seen? By that logic, anyone who believes that the (as yet unseen) future holds a brighter day has "blind faith". I don't think this is what most people mean by blind faith. The "blindness" metaphor in the expression "blind faith" works in a particular way: as I suggested in my prior comment, it refers to dumbly believing something just because someone told you to.

Otherwise, what are we to make of the secular belief in, say, future scientific progress? Is that not a belief in an unseen future state of things? Does it therefore amount to "blind faith" to believe in such a future? I propose that most reasonable people would say that no, it does not, because that belief in the future amounts to a sort of extrapolation, however vague and precarious, of a trajectory of history for which we have plenty of evidence.

And so similarly, when Paul says that we "walk by faith, not by sight", it is because he "already has the Spirit as a first installment". That is, he has already experienced something that justifies his faith. This is the very opposite of blind faith. The most immediate form of knowledge possible, direct personal experience, has endowed him with a hermeneutic key to history, a history that he can therefore extrapolate, however vaguely and precariously, into an unseen future. He is walking toward that future with a justified faith, not a blind faith.

With John 20:29 something slightly different is going on, although it's still in the same general zip code. Jesus is chastising Thomas because he has insisted on a miraculous display of divine power in order to underwrite his trust. There's nothing wrong with asking for evidence, but it would have been a greater blessing for Thomas to perceive and trust the centrality of Jesus without the benefit of the whiz-bang pyrotechnics. A real, healthy trust in another person is a trust that, while inquisitive, does not insist on the other person's complete self-revelation.

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极速赛车168官网 By: Jim (hillclimber) https://strangenotions.com/a-10-point-primer-on-faith-and-science-for-christians-and-atheists/#comment-179374 Mon, 21 Aug 2017 23:38:00 +0000 http://strangenotions.com/?p=6565#comment-179374 I disavow the definition of faith that is implicit in your interpretation of those verses. On my understanding, and on orthodox Christian interpretations, those verses have nothing to do with "just believing something because someone tells you to". They have to do with trusting something that is evidently trustworthy without insisting on full knowledge. It is akin to trusting a good friend when he says, "trust me, keep reading, this book is worth the effort".

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极速赛车168官网 By: Jim (hillclimber) https://strangenotions.com/a-10-point-primer-on-faith-and-science-for-christians-and-atheists/#comment-179373 Mon, 21 Aug 2017 22:07:00 +0000 http://strangenotions.com/?p=6565#comment-179373 Do we really have to play games like this?

Yes, I am a Christian. In orthodox Christianity, fideism is verboten.

Now go ahead and tell me why you think that is inconsistent with Christianity, as you could have done earlier.

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极速赛车168官网 By: Jim (hillclimber) https://strangenotions.com/a-10-point-primer-on-faith-and-science-for-christians-and-atheists/#comment-179372 Mon, 21 Aug 2017 21:48:00 +0000 http://strangenotions.com/?p=6565#comment-179372 Haven't I already answered that?

No, of course I don't think blind faith is good way to determine anything. I don't advocate blind faith at all.

(???)

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极速赛车168官网 By: Jim (hillclimber) https://strangenotions.com/a-10-point-primer-on-faith-and-science-for-christians-and-atheists/#comment-179370 Mon, 21 Aug 2017 21:19:00 +0000 http://strangenotions.com/?p=6565#comment-179370 In every case, as far as I can tell, I am using faith to mean trust. One can speak of a natural faith in reason, faith in other people, or faith in something that transcends and envelops the universe, but as I see it this is all on a continuum; in all cases it refers to trust.

As far as blind faith ... I think what people generally mean by that is something like "believing something just because someone told you so, without the benefit of any corroborating evidence". Of course even that is not exactly blind: presumably you accept someone's say-so because that person has earned your trust, i.e. you can reason from the evidence to conclude that that person is trustworthy.

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极速赛车168官网 By: Jim (hillclimber) https://strangenotions.com/a-10-point-primer-on-faith-and-science-for-christians-and-atheists/#comment-179368 Mon, 21 Aug 2017 19:49:00 +0000 http://strangenotions.com/?p=6565#comment-179368 Almost any combination of faith and reason (whether inductive or otherwise) trumps blind faith. See fideism.

But in any case, that is not the essence of the point I was making. The point I was making was that faith and reason (again, inductive or otherwise) cannot be disentangled, unless one is engaging in a purely mathematical type of reasoning and bracketing all questions of applicability to reality. Faith and reason lean on each other for support. Inductive reasoning requires implicit faith in the continued coherence of reality.

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极速赛车168官网 By: Jim (hillclimber) https://strangenotions.com/a-10-point-primer-on-faith-and-science-for-christians-and-atheists/#comment-179359 Mon, 21 Aug 2017 09:39:00 +0000 http://strangenotions.com/?p=6565#comment-179359 Like most people, I implicitly had faith in the ongoing coherence of reality pre-reflectively, long before I ever thought about it. It's a faith that seems to arise naturally, barring psychotic conditions I guess.

Then at some point of maturity, around college age IIRC, I began to reflect on the nature of this faith, and to consider whether I could do without it. And there are, of course, practical arguments in favor of faith in inductive reasoning, such as wanting to avoid a life of paranoid anxiety about the future. But arguably that is neither here nor there with respect to epistemic warrant: just because something makes you paranoid and anxious doesn't mean it's not true. So, it seemed to me that there was something deeper than mere pragmatism going on. And eventually I found myself with the position that I still have to this day: there is something at the deepest depths of reality that I trust, and that's that. Belief in inductive reasoning is a fruit of, or an aspect of, this "deepest faith". Any rational analysis of my "deepest faith" will itself be founded on my "deepest faith", so I'm afraid I don't see a way to dig any deeper.

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极速赛车168官网 By: Jim (hillclimber) https://strangenotions.com/a-10-point-primer-on-faith-and-science-for-christians-and-atheists/#comment-179346 Mon, 21 Aug 2017 02:27:00 +0000 http://strangenotions.com/?p=6565#comment-179346 I would pick choice "A", because I do have faith in inductive reasoning. There is no evidence that the past is a reliable guide to the future and that inductive reasoning will therefore work, but I accept on faith that reality will have this continued coherence. Perhaps if I did not have this faith I would dive into empty swimming pools.

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极速赛车168官网 By: garza45637@mail.ru https://strangenotions.com/a-10-point-primer-on-faith-and-science-for-christians-and-atheists/#comment-174788 Wed, 08 Mar 2017 06:22:00 +0000 http://strangenotions.com/?p=6565#comment-174788 Do not mix up with scince and religion. Religion based on the belief whereas science based on logic. Here is some sort of fact which may help you to understand it perfectly.

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极速赛车168官网 By: Doug Shaver https://strangenotions.com/a-10-point-primer-on-faith-and-science-for-christians-and-atheists/#comment-167730 Fri, 19 Aug 2016 20:49:00 +0000 http://strangenotions.com/?p=6565#comment-167730 In reply to Phil.

The problem with this is if the PSR is not true, then it is equally possible that your very belief that the PSR might not be true has no sufficient reason for existing.

Maybe, but one cannot infer “We should believe it” from “It’s possibly true.”

Therefore, it would be irrational for me or anyone else to take that conjecture very seriously.

Yes, if your only reason for taking it seriously was my asserting it. But rationality is about the exercise of reason, which among other things is about logical consistency. If the PSR is consistent with your worldview, then it is rational for you to accept it. If its negation is consistent with my worldview, then it’s rational for me to think it’s possible that the PSR is false. There are some things that rational people can disagree about, don’t you agree?

How do we know that there is rational and sufficient reason for your belief...we don't know and neither would you.

The PSR makes an assertion about all of our beliefs. To deny “For all X, Y” is not to affirm, “For no X, Y.”

If the PNC is merely a logical abstraction, would you then claim it is possible for you to exist and not-exist at the same time, in the same place, and in the same respect?

I would claim that without the PNC, such a statement could not mean anything, and that any meaningless statement cannot be either true or false.

If I remember correctly, you did say that you take the capability for good reasoning towards truth as a first principle, or assumption in your philosophical system. A first principle in a philosophical system gets at what is most true and evident because it is that which everything else is built upon.

I don’t agree that our assumptions are about things that are “most true.” Strictly speaking, truth doesn’t exist in degrees. Probability does, and we have to be careful about thinking that “more probably true” is a way of saying “more true.” And we should never think that just because we justifiably assume something, we can assign it a probability of exactly 1.0.

We may well begin our reasoning, in some important sense, with our assumptions, but that doesn’t mean the assumptions themselves are forever off the table. We still learn about reality by observing it, and if we observe something that cannot be reconciled with one of our assumptions and if we cannot dismiss the observation as an illusion or other product of human fallibility, then it may be time to revise or discard that assumption.

What would be your first principle about reality if it isn't human reason capable of discovering truth?

I don’t have just one. My worldview rests on several assumptions, and I don’t rank them in any order. Besides, assumptions are supposed to be independent of each other. If my assumption B depends on my assumption A, then I’m not really assuming B. I am assuming A and then inferring B.

Just a few philosophical principles that science relies upon:

1) The scientific method itself (which isn't a scientific theory that can be tested and falsified)
2) Principle of causality
3) PNC
4) PSR
5) Intelligibility of external world
6) Capability of the human mind to discover truth

All of this depends on how you’re defining “science,” but in ordinary discourse, “scientific method” is just a description of how the people we call scientists do their jobs, and it serves as a means of distinguishing science, whatever we think it is, from all the other ways human beings have come up with for answering questions. We who argue that intelligent design is not science do so by claiming that ID’s practitioners do not actually comply with the scientific method.

The other items on this list are not unique to science no matter how we define science. Generally speaking, even people who are actively hostile to science accept them, and so if science relies on them, then so does every other kind of human intellectual endeavor. A possible exception would be (6), considering that there are people who deny our ability to discover truth. However, many who think we can discover truth also deny that science is the best way for us to do it.

we need to ask, okay, what philosophical principles must be true if science actually works as we are finding it to work.

That is what philosophers of science have been trying to figure out for the past century or so. Last time I checked, they hadn’t reached a consensus, but I don’t recall any of them offering the PSR as any part of their explanation.

But to head back towards our main discussion of what could completely explain and account of the intelligibly of the material cosmos and the ability of the mind to reason to truth.

If this discussion is attempting to reach a complete explanation, then I need to withdraw now.

Unfortunately, falling into an intellectual black hole is the penalty for anyone not holding the PNC or PSR to be true.

I have repeatedly defended my acceptance of the PNC. I am denying only that the PSR is necessarily true, and I am specifically denying that the PNC depends on it, and you have failed to show any mistake in my non-PSR-dependent defense of the PNC.

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