Marxism is a good example. One of the huge problems Marxism had was that
not everyone agreed that Marxism was a good idea. So what did they do?
Executions, indoctrinations, imprisonments, etc. The system could not
work and still leave people free to disagree.

That is not the point. These are reasons why we would reject Marxism as a political philosophy. These are reasons why we don't need to appeal to a deity to decide on our government.

Once I saw there were very good reasons to believe Catholicism had the
fullness of truth then spending time to develop a deeper understanding
of it made a lot more sense. So yes, different opinions about God can
lead to a functional atheism

I think you will find that most of the atheists on here were raised Catholic.

This strikes me as a bit circular.

That's unavoidable. We're talking about primitive terminology, It can't be defined noncircularly. That's why Hilbert didn't even try to define his primitive terms.

A true statement is one that asserts a fact.

And this makes "truth" and "fact" equivalent.

No, it doesn't, but the words are interchangeable in some contexts.

Can you be true to your friends? Can a novel be true to life?

Sure, but you're changing the subject.

What exactly is the "real" world?

With those scare quotes, I have no idea what you're asking me.

Is the statement: "If a topology is both conjoining and splitting on (Zα)^Y for each α, then the product topology is conjoining and splitting on Π(Z^Y) over α' a true statement?

I have not studied enough topology to have a clue.

One of the hardest things to obtain is a fact

I don't know what you mean by obtaining a fact.

Marxism is a good example. One of the huge problems Marxism had was that not everyone agreed that Marxism was a good idea. So what did they do? Executions, indoctrinations, imprisonments, etc. The system could not work and still leave people free to disagree.

I was actually a lot less interested in theology as a protestant. One big reason is there was no way to know for sure who had the true teachings. Once I saw there were very good reasons to believe Catholicism had the fullness of truth then spending time to develop a deeper understanding of it made a lot more sense. So yes, different opinions about God can lead to a functional atheism.

Multiple ways meaning things like Social Contract Theory, Utilitarianism, Marxism, etc. Sure people will argue for other types of government systems and different ways of being governed, but that does not mean that all reasoning about government is wrong or futile. In some ways that fact argues for various principle of limited government, which is something that the religious right has abandoned.

Different people also reason differently about God. Does that mean we should abandon thinking, arguing, or believing in God? I do not believe in any type of Deity, but if there was a God, I think he would be different from the Abrahamic conception of God.

Thanks. That clarification helps a lot.

" I'm proposing that moderate Muslims are not following Islam as the founder, Muhammad, expounded and ultimately intended."

This is very likely true. Of course, I'd say the same about modern Christianity. I think most religions tend to evolve beyond the intentions of their founder. The way I see it, if you want to look at what a religion is today you can't just look at what it might have been at it's inception. Of course, Mohammed's and Jesus' words and intentions matter, but the beliefs of modern Muslims and Christians today matter even more. Whatever "true" Islam or "true" Christianity is, it has certainly changed from when they were founded.

Thank you as well for the conversation!

As a final clarification, I think there is still some misunderstanding in what I'm proposing. I'm proposing that moderate Muslims are not following Islam as the founder, Muhammad, expounded and ultimately intended. What we call "radical Islam" would be considered Islam in the fullest sense.

As a side note, I am not calling any person themself, even active members of ISIS, evil. But their acts and the beliefs that have been handed down from Muhammad are evil. We need to recognize that Islam is not oriented towards true peace and tolerance. It is oriented towards the caliphate, which is the fullest expression of Islam. (Which is what ISIS desires to establish.)

I can see that this conversation will just continue in circles...

I just find your responses very odd. You seem to understand that the majority of Muslims, including clerics and imams who spend their lives studying it, would disagree with the "evil premises" that you stated above. You seem to understand that if they read what you outlined above they would say that Islam is not founded upon any of those. And yet you discard their perspective entirely and say that they are being "blinded by the Evil One." It's very curious to say that moderate, non-violent Muslims are under the influence of the devil....

I never said that we should not address the problem of violent Islamists. We should in the same way that we should address violent Christian groups or violent communist groups. I just don't lump the rest of Islam in with those groups in the same way I wouldn't lump Joseph Kony in with Christianity, or the Tamil Tigers with the rest of communism.

It has been an interesting conversation. Thank you.

If only the minority are as radical as Muhammad was, then we should be thankful! But to hold that Islam was founded upon the ideals of peace and true tolerance is fanciful self-deception.

So many have been blinded by the Evil One. When many look at Christianity, they point towards the persons who have not acted Christ-like and scream "violence", "hatred", "condemnation upon all of Christianity". But when they look to a religion such as Islam, they turn a blind eye to the fact that it was founded upon the sinister premises that I stated above. And then they make excuses when people actually try and follow what Islam was founded upon.

But in the end, it will all come crashing down upon the West. If we don't want to address the problem of radical Islam, then we are going to find radical Islam at our door. And this will not simply be from violence as the various economic and political systems are built on sand and are ready to collapse. This is not to preach doom and gloom, because as I mentioned above our Blessed Mother has prepared us for this time. As more and more people would turn back to God, the suffering and darkness could be lessened. And those that do turn to faith in the living God for the answer during the times of darkness will find themselves able to survive with a great sense of hope and joy.

Again, the majority of Muslims will disagree with your interpretation of what Mohammed ultimately commanded. They would also take objection with the idea that bin Laden and ISIS represent the "fullest realization" of Islam. I think that characterizing a religion by what a minority of it believes while ignoring the rest is dishonest.

I do agree that one needs to look at the entire picture to get an idea of what a certain religion or belief system is putting forward. That is why we also look to what the founder of Islam, Muhammad, commanded. In regards to the Qur'an, I'd do a little more research. Because "leaving people alone" is not the ultimate conclusion of it--they are ordered to leave you alone as long as you live under the domination of Islam and the caliphate. So though the Bible and the Qur'an both have "nice passages", they ultimately diverge in their final instructions.

-What did Muhammad say in his farewell address in 632AD: "I was ordered to fight all men until they say, 'There is no god but Allah'".

-Muhammad initially devised the concept of jihad--"exertion in the path of Allah".

-In 2001 Osama bin Laden said, "I was ordered to fight the people until they say there is no god but Allah and his prophet Muhammad".

-The ultimate goal of Islam is to strive for a new universal order in which the whole of humanity will embrace Islam or live under its domination.

-ISIS is simply the fullest realization to date of what Muhammad ordered.

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What did Jesus ultimately say and command:

-"Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you."

-"Put your sword back into its sheath, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword."

-"Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do."

A person that does not live in the love that Jesus commanded cannot properly be called a Christian.

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Finally, the crusades are completely misunderstood these days. The Muslims were doing almost exactly what ISIS is doing today--they were killing Christians and taking over land. The purpose of the crusades was to defend Christianity from these invading Muslims!