极速赛车168官网 Comments on: ‘Rise of the Planet of the Apes’ and the Dangers of Consequentialism https://strangenotions.com/rise-of-the-planet-of-the-apes/ A Digital Areopagus // Reason. Faith. Dialogue. Wed, 09 Oct 2013 18:52:00 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=6.7.1 极速赛车168官网 By: Noah Luck https://strangenotions.com/rise-of-the-planet-of-the-apes/#comment-32675 Wed, 09 Oct 2013 18:52:00 +0000 http://strangenotions.com/?p=3732#comment-32675 "it speaks some hard truths about science and about the all too human tendency to indulge in consequentialist moral reasoning"

It's fiction. Fiction sparks discussion of ideas. Fiction isn't evidence -- not even weak evidence, let alone "hard truths" -- about the real world.

]]> 极速赛车168官网 By: Steven Carr https://strangenotions.com/rise-of-the-planet-of-the-apes/#comment-32345 Mon, 07 Oct 2013 09:52:00 +0000 http://strangenotions.com/?p=3732#comment-32345 '.....it speaks some hard truths about science and about the all too human tendency to indulge in consequentialist moral reasoning'

Consequentialist moral reasoning goes back a long way.

Exodus 20
“Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the Lord your God is giving you.

]]> 极速赛车168官网 By: Michael Francis Goodwin https://strangenotions.com/rise-of-the-planet-of-the-apes/#comment-32278 Sat, 05 Oct 2013 22:11:00 +0000 http://strangenotions.com/?p=3732#comment-32278 Fr. Barron, thanks for continuing to engage the messages found in the culture of movies! I remember seeing this movie last year and was surprised by the quality of the story and how it communicated this message. I hear there is a sequel being worked on now that will show the apes now in a position of supremacy over humans. I'll be intrigued if they use that story to convey another poignant message. See you around Mundelein!

]]> 极速赛车168官网 By: Loreen Lee https://strangenotions.com/rise-of-the-planet-of-the-apes/#comment-32277 Sat, 05 Oct 2013 19:45:00 +0000 http://strangenotions.com/?p=3732#comment-32277 Many thoughtful comments here. I would like to draw further attention to a distinction that can be made, (as in Kant's philosophy) between pragmatic choices and moral choices. Within this context, I believe we can distinguish between choices made to achieve specific (although the choices might be perhaps changeable through trial and error) and the idea of the 'ends justify the means', which would place the end, (as distinct from a goal), as a priority, and thus would establish a priority which I believe would go against morality, per se. This I believe would be a 'truth' by definition, because I understand morality to be precisely concerned with 'means' rather than ends. Kant' made the distinction between pragmatics and morality based on the distinction between what is done in one's self-interest, as contrasted what is a 'duty' conceived under the categories of universality and necessity. (I'm still hoping someone will respond with thoughts as to how necessity might be related to 'objectivity' as per another post.) Thank you.

]]> 极速赛车168官网 By: Mikegalanx https://strangenotions.com/rise-of-the-planet-of-the-apes/#comment-32257 Sat, 05 Oct 2013 05:47:00 +0000 http://strangenotions.com/?p=3732#comment-32257 "Despite the protests of many ethicians at the time, and even of some of the scientists involved, the Manhattan Project
researchers went ahead with the development of a weapon that, they
knew, would certainly result in the deaths of countless
non-combatants—and the world has been haunted ever since by what they
produced."

And if they hadn't? Estimates of an Allied invasion of Japan run about 200,000 deaths and 2 million wounded. Japanese civilian deaths would have been much worse,of course,since they were training children to be suicide bombers and old ladies to attack heavily-armed soldiers with sharpened broom handles.

The conventional weapons being used - whether air raids or US subs cutting off supplies of natural resources and food- alsoled to tens of thousands of civilian deaths.

Consequences? A delayed Japanese surrender could have led to a Soviet occupation of all northern Japan,instead of just two small islands; Japan would resemble a divided Korea and all of Korea would be controlled by Pyongyang.

Without the threat of American A-bombs, Europe could have seen a conventional WWIII

as devastating as the first two; or, the Russians could have decided to roll across Western Europe, using the additional economic strength to control the Middle East. Western Europe reduced to the condition of the Warsaw Pact; the destruction of Israel; the Pope fled to exile in Argentina and St.Peter's re-opened as a museum to the horrors of the Inquisition; hard-core Stalinism and the subsequent misery spread all over Eurasia.....consequences.

Prediction is hard, especially about the future.

Mike Newsham

]]> 极速赛车168官网 By: robtish https://strangenotions.com/rise-of-the-planet-of-the-apes/#comment-32254 Sat, 05 Oct 2013 01:14:00 +0000 http://strangenotions.com/?p=3732#comment-32254 In reply to MattyTheD.

Consequentialism does mean "justifying *immoral* means for *moral* ends." Suppose you were considering a policy of killing everyone above the age of 60 in order to free up medical resources for children. The consequences would not merely be the freeing up of medical resources -- they would also include all that killing. All those consequences would have to be weighed.

If you consider the deliberate killing of an innocent person to be an unacceptable consequence, then you would reject the policy. The question then becomes: how do you weigh those consequences.against each other? And this is where consequentialism breaks into a number of different schools of thought.
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/consequentialism/

]]> 极速赛车168官网 By: Paul Boillot https://strangenotions.com/rise-of-the-planet-of-the-apes/#comment-32247 Fri, 04 Oct 2013 22:18:00 +0000 http://strangenotions.com/?p=3732#comment-32247 In reply to MattyTheD.

Except that "the practice of justifying *immoral* means for *moral* ends" is not what the word 'consequentialism' means. When he uses the word as if it has his implied meaning he's begging the question in addition to misuse of vocabulary.

All of this while judging the outcomes through....consequentialism.

]]> 极速赛车168官网 By: David Nickol https://strangenotions.com/rise-of-the-planet-of-the-apes/#comment-32233 Fri, 04 Oct 2013 20:17:00 +0000 http://strangenotions.com/?p=3732#comment-32233 In reply to MattyTheD.

What kind of response is that? You know perfectly well I didn't mean "an observation one could only have if one didn't read the article and one wants to fabricate contradictions that aren't there." You are just being snarky.

If you really don't see the irony of talking about "the dangers of consequentialism," say so, and I will attempt to explain it to you.

]]> 极速赛车168官网 By: MattyTheD https://strangenotions.com/rise-of-the-planet-of-the-apes/#comment-32231 Fri, 04 Oct 2013 19:49:00 +0000 http://strangenotions.com/?p=3732#comment-32231 In reply to David Nickol.

"Great insight"? I agree, if by "great insight" you mean "an observation one could only have if one didn't read the article and one wants to fabricate contradictions that aren't there."

]]> 极速赛车168官网 By: MattyTheD https://strangenotions.com/rise-of-the-planet-of-the-apes/#comment-32230 Fri, 04 Oct 2013 19:45:00 +0000 http://strangenotions.com/?p=3732#comment-32230 In reply to Peter Piper.

Oy vey, Peter, do you *really* think that that Fr. Barron's point is that we should never consider consequences? That's just sophistry. It's entirely clear from Fr. Barron's text and his subtext that "consequentialism" refers to the practice of justifying *immoral* means for *moral* ends. It has nothing to do with being blind to all consequences. Just because you didn't follow his argument carefully doesn't mean he contradicted himself.

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